S&M In the Mainstream

[nyisles]

Just curious if anyone has any opinion on s&m being in the mainstream via Rihanna...

 

[joey]

Just curious if anyone has any opinion on s&m being in the mainstream via Rihanna...

 

 

being a newbie sub my research has shown me that s&m is just starting to come out of the closet so to speak. when i was growing up the idea of a women being dominant was unheard of. now the ladies, the fashions and the practice of the bondage arts is becoming more mainstream. check out h ollywood, more and more movies have s&m fashions in them and even some s&m themes.

 

this is the time of the celebrity domme. when i say that i mean the ladies who practice s&m arts are now being looked up to like celebrities. for example dommes now have a fan base of people that admire them, want autographed photos, etc.

[Mistress Zhao]

being a newbie sub my research has shown me that s&m is just starting to come out of the closet so to speak. when i was growing up the idea of a women being dominant was unheard of. now the ladies, the fashions and the practice of the bondage arts is becoming more mainstream. check out h ollywood, more and more movies have s&m fashions in them and even some s&m themes.

 

this is the time of the celebrity domme. when i say that i mean the ladies who practice s&m arts are now being looked up to like celebrities. for example dommes now have a fan base of people that admire them, want autographed photos, etc.

 

 

joey, I completely agree with you. Very insightful

 

As the Age of Aquarius comes more fully into being, individuals are being heralded for their sense of well, individuality. Which means that all the freaks can proudly be freaky without fearing judgement and condemnation (in America and Europe, anyway).

 

The fact that bdsm is "coming out of the closet", to quote joey, is a sure sign that we are becoming more comfortable and open with our sexuality and the sexuality of others. Now that homosexuality is less of a taboon in more progressive parts of the world, the next logical step is kink and bdsm. I am so very glad that Rihanna has made it fashionable and not just weird to wear latex. And Devendra Banhart has publically, candidly and sweetly brought about the idea of am s/m relationship in his video, "Foolin'". There is so much more in pop media that makes conceptual reference to bdsm (Ugly Americans, Family Guy, etc) that I am both happy to see become acceptable, but also a little daunted by its superficiality.

 

I really like the idea of the celebrity domme, also. It will be up to us to redefine the idea of what a domina is, for all of those who either have ill-conceived ideas or negative judgements about such an occupation. And I am also really looking forward to more interviews and exposure from alternative lifestyle magazines.

[joey]

joey, I completely agree with you. Very insightful

 

As the Age of Aquarius comes more fully into being, individuals are being heralded for their sense of well, individuality. Which means that all the freaks can proudly be freaky without fearing judgement and condemnation (in America and Europe, anyway).

 

The fact that bdsm is "coming out of the closet", to quote joey, is a sure sign that we are becoming more comfortable and open with our sexuality and the sexuality of others. Now that homosexuality is less of a taboon in more progressive parts of the world, the next logical step is kink and bdsm. I am so very glad that Rihanna has made it fashionable and not just weird to wear latex. And Devendra Banhart has publically, candidly and sweetly brought about the idea of am s/m relationship in his video, "Foolin'". There is so much more in pop media that makes conceptual reference to bdsm (Ugly Americans, Family Guy, etc) that I am both happy to see become acceptable, but also a little daunted by its superficiality.

 

I really like the idea of the celebrity domme, also. It will be up to us to redefine the idea of what a domina is, for all of those who either have ill-conceived ideas or negative judgements about such an occupation. And I am also really looking forward to more interviews and exposure from alternative lifestyle magazines.

 

SUPERIOR MISTRESS ZHAO, YOUR wisdom speaks loudly here. bdsm should have never been in the closet. it has in my view always been a respectable profession and i feel that all women who practice the s&m arts are courageous free thinkers.

 

i, too, like the idea of celebrity dommes and i feel the idea of the domina is being reformed for the better as we speak. look at YOU LADIES of the FORTRESS for example each of YOU has a fan base of admirerers tantamount to a hollywood actress. in fact YOU were recently recognized by a fan when YOU were riding the subway.

 

proof positive that the celebrity domme is on the rise.

[akiravn1]

 

As the Age of Aquarius comes more fully into being, individuals are being heralded for their sense of well, individuality. Which means that all the freaks can proudly be freaky without fearing judgement and condemnation (in America and Europe, anyway).

 

The fact that bdsm is "coming out of the closet", to quote joey, is a sure sign that we are becoming more comfortable and open with our sexuality and the sexuality of others. Now that homosexuality is less of a taboon in more progressive parts of the world, the next logical step is kink and bdsm. I am so very glad that Rihanna has made it fashionable and not just weird to wear latex. And Devendra Banhart has publically, candidly and sweetly brought about the idea of am s/m relationship in his video, "Foolin'". There is so much more in pop media that makes conceptual reference to bdsm (Ugly Americans, Family Guy, etc) that I am both happy to see become acceptable, but also a little daunted by its superficiality.

 

I really like the idea of the celebrity domme, also. It will be up to us to redefine the idea of what a domina is, for all of those who either have ill-conceived ideas or negative judgements about such an occupation. And I am also really looking forward to more interviews and exposure from alternative lifestyle magazines.

 

Finally a more broad acceptability of BDSM and getting your freak on without fear of condemnation, which seems long overdue and is without question nice to see more of these days within the mainstream. I guess ultimately it will be a step by step process in redefining the kind of preconceived notions and negative judgements that so many individuals continue to harbour about a domina and this practice in general. Just hope that society continues to move forward in a more positive fashion.

[Mistress Tran]

Just curious if anyone has any opinion on s&m being in the mainstream via Rihanna...

 

 

 

I completely agree with MZhao. Its very good to see that alternative life styles and varies expression of sexuality are being recognized but it is a bit sad that it needs to be accepted by a celebrity before regular society can be ok with it. I respect Rihanna for taking a risk and putting this out in the mainstream...I now she did get a lot of bad press as well. I am very excited to see what happens in the next few years and how BDSM lifestyle transitions into the mainstream.

[Cannon Fodder]

Yes Mistress Zhao thank you for your great post on the subject. I would love to read any of your interviews as you are both an expert in the field and seem to be able to speak about this subject in a very enlightening and non-threatening way, which is important if bdsm is ever to be truly integrated into society.

 

The one problem I see, and that you touched upon, is the superficiality of it. It is possibly becoming a trend, a fashion, a dalliance. Something to be held up as rebellious, scandalous yet ultimately to be tossed aside as something that should not be delved into too deeply. And sure, the point I'm making is a somewhat expected protest at something I held to be special, almost sacred being "white-washed" in the mainstream. I sincerely hope that bdsm isn't turned into a slick fad, and that it can be integrated into society in a healthy way.

 

While bdsm doesn't appeal to nor is it for everyone, I do believe that a more open and honest discussion and acceptance of dominance and submission, and the interplay between them should become the focal point for those trying to bring bdsm to the masses, as that is truly what is at heart here and the "whips and chains" are merely the physical manifestations of psychological facts Hopefully, a more honest assessment by couples of their own roles in their relationships will provide them with a new outlook on what relationships really are and what is really at play. Now getting the masses to start tying each other up and inducing calculated, erotic pain.....that would just be icing on the cake!

[Mistress Zhao]

 

The one problem I see, and that you touched upon, is the superficiality of it. It is possibly becoming a trend, a fashion, a dalliance. Something to be held up as rebellious, scandalous yet ultimately to be tossed aside as something that should not be delved into too deeply. And sure, the point I'm making is a somewhat expected protest at something I held to be special, almost sacred being "white-washed" in the mainstream. I sincerely hope that bdsm isn't turned into a slick fad, and that it can be integrated into society in a healthy way.

 

While bdsm doesn't appeal to nor is it for everyone, I do believe that a more open and honest discussion and acceptance of dominance and submission, and the interplay between them should become the focal point for those trying to bring bdsm to the masses, as that is truly what is at heart here and the "whips and chains" are merely the physical manifestations of psychological facts Hopefully, a more honest assessment by couples of their own roles in their relationships will provide them with a new outlook on what relationships really are and what is really at play. Now getting the masses to start tying each other up and inducing calculated, erotic pain.....that would just be icing on the cake!

 

Cannon,

 

I see your point in the superficiality of bdsm being a somewhat trendy diversion. But with all things that seem to re-enter their cycle after a period of dormancy, it begins with the superficial and evolves into its incarnation depending on the times. I know for a fact that bdsm has been around since the Romans, perhaps before, but as the psychology of the human mind evolves, so do new ideas and forms. So in its dormancy, bdsm has had time to germinate new ways. Of course many elements will be "borrowed" or simply referenced but not explored. And there is already the "white-washing" of it from its pure form to make it more digestable for the mainstream.

 

It's all well and good, in my zen opinion. Better it be out there, free and somewhat accepted, than lurking underground, mutating in its darkness and festering from lack of exposure. The way I see it, bdsm will never be tossed aside by its true believers and practitioners. While it may be a stylish trend for a moment (like Asians!) it has been around for long enough and is psychologically deep and intricate enough to hold its own with or without the mainstream. And as things progress these days, the mainstream is taking many twists and turns to keep up with all that humanity has to offer. The number of bdsm related classes and workshops out now which are available just about anyone is a good measure of how responsible practitioners are taking matters into their own hands.

[joey]

i noticed there was a lot of improvement with my two posts here. thanks for those posting tips, SUPERIOR MZ!

[Speechless]

While it may be a stylish trend for a moment (like Asians!) ...

Borrowing the language of our economist brethren, I consider Asian appreciation to be a secular trend, rather than cyclical. Or in plain English, y'all ain't gotta worry about going out of style.

[deanroberts]

I don't think S&M is becoming more mainstream. In the media, it simply goes in phases, like many re-cycled trends. Sure, right now you have Rihanna and Lady Gaga. Before that Madonna (anyone remember Erotica and the Sex book?)

 

I do see it a little more in a surprising place: Network televsion. But, that makes sense. They are trying to compete cable networks that of late have been loaded with T&A: HBO, SHOWTIME, STARZ. Hints of kind and S&M in mainstream television allow them to be provocative while skirting around censorship by be elusive. I remember a surprising line years ago in Veronica Cars in a discussion about s guys expertise with tires, Veronica said, "Wait, you won an award for a rim job?" Ever watch Glee? Their glee clubs name is The New Directions. Sound like anything else? How about, The Nude Erections. If you pay attention, you'll notice a lot of these quips slipped in. Pun intended.

[joey]

ASIANS WILL NEVER GO OUT OF STYLE! THEY ARE SO NICE AND WONDERFUL!

[nyisles]

Ever watch Glee? Their glee clubs name is The New Directions. Sound like anything else? How about, The Nude Erections. If you pay attention, you'll notice a lot of these quips slipped in. Pun intended.

 

This is a bit of a stretch. It's not as blatant as say Pussy Galore in James Bond which almost had to be renamed Kitty Galore because of censors.

This is like saying New Dehli was named after Nude Ellie.

[deanroberts]

This is a bit of a stretch. It's not as blatant as say Pussy Galore in James Bond which almost had to be renamed Kitty Galore because of censors.

This is like saying New Dehli was named after Nude Ellie.

 

Not a stretch at all. Glee comes from the writers and producers of the always-over-the-top Nip/Tuck.It was just an example of writers taking some minor by the use word play. Glee is chock full of sexuality and entendre. They especially amp things up during Sweeps.

 

My main point is: you will see increased sexuality and kink going "mainstream" with the need for the more clean media (e.g., television) to compete with less censored outlets like cable shows, the Internet, Apatow flicks, etc. Overall, thanks to the Internet, sexuality itself has become more mainstream. Kink simply follows.

[joey]

i hope i live to see the day when kink becomes the norm.

[nyisles]

i hope i live to see the day when kink becomes the norm.

 

It will never be the norm, because once it does it is no longer kink.

[akiravn1]

i hope i live to see the day when kink becomes the norm.

 

Then I will finally fit in!

[Jung's Jewboy]

Cannon,

 

I see your point in the superficiality of bdsm being a somewhat trendy diversion. But with all things that seem to re-enter their cycle after a period of dormancy, it begins with the superficial and evolves into its incarnation depending on the times. I know for a fact that bdsm has been around since the Romans, perhaps before, but as the psychology of the human mind evolves, so do new ideas and forms. So in its dormancy, bdsm has had time to germinate new ways. Of course many elements will be "borrowed" or simply referenced but not explored. And there is already the "white-washing" of it from its pure form to make it more digestable for the mainstream.

 

It's all well and good, in my zen opinion. Better it be out there, free and somewhat accepted, than lurking underground, mutating in its darkness and festering from lack of exposure. The way I see it, bdsm will never be tossed aside by its true believers and practitioners. While it may be a stylish trend for a moment (like Asians!) it has been around for long enough and is psychologically deep and intricate enough to hold its own with or without the mainstream. And as things progress these days, the mainstream is taking many twists and turns to keep up with all that humanity has to offer. The number of bdsm related classes and workshops out now which are available just about anyone is a good measure of how responsible practitioners are taking matters into their own hands.

 

Hmm, maybe I'm a bit 'old school' but i kind of liked it when S & M was a bit more 'taboo'. With regard to Rihanna, I think her interest is genuine but the song is a bit 'obvious' and i think is an appeal to an outdated sense of 'notoriety'. Addiitionally, I think it is interesting given her having been a victim of domestic violence that she has 'taken the reins' so to speak.

 

So, Asians are a stylish trend? I didn't know that, but then I hadn't heard that jewish men and asian women is a stereotypical pairing apparently. Had anyone else ever heard of that?

 

 

I hate to think I'm trendy, damn. LOL

[Mistress Zhao]

Hmm, maybe I'm a bit 'old school' but i kind of liked it when S & M was a bit more 'taboo'. With regard to Rihanna, I think her interest is genuine but the song is a bit 'obvious' and i think is an appeal to an outdated sense of 'notoriety'. Addiitionally, I think it is interesting given her having been a victim of domestic violence that she has 'taken the reins' so to speak.

 

So, Asians are a stylish trend? I didn't know that, but then I hadn't heard that jewish men and asian women is a stereotypical pairing apparently. Had anyone else ever heard of that?

 

 

I hate to think I'm trendy, damn. LOL

 

The hottest accessory this summer is an Asian girlfriend. LOL

As for the Jewish man/Asian woman pairing, I can see how that trend would appear. We're both rather pragmatic and frugal about money!

[Mistress Zhao]

I don't think S&M is becoming more mainstream. In the media, it simply goes in phases, like many re-cycled trends. Sure, right now you have Rihanna and Lady Gaga. Before that Madonna (anyone remember Erotica and the Sex book?)

 

I do see it a little more in a surprising place: Network televsion. But, that makes sense. They are trying to compete cable networks that of late have been loaded with T&A: HBO, SHOWTIME, STARZ. Hints of kind and S&M in mainstream television allow them to be provocative while skirting around censorship by be elusive. I remember a surprising line years ago in Veronica Cars in a discussion about s guys expertise with tires, Veronica said, "Wait, you won an award for a rim job?" Ever watch Glee? Their glee clubs name is The New Directions. Sound like anything else? How about, The Nude Erections. If you pay attention, you'll notice a lot of these quips slipped in. Pun intended.

 

So you're saying that seeing more s&m and kink referred to on network television isn't mainstream?

While I agree with the concept of recycling trends, I think it also evolves and becomes more acceptable to a wider range of audience.

The world is expanding, making room for more and more ideas.

"Mainstream" as we know it is an amorphous channel for what is current and popular. Since the idea of mainstream keeps changing, so does our capacity to understand ideas that the newer generation sees for the first time and appropriates for further consumption.

[akiravn1]

The hottest accessory this summer is an Asian girlfriend. LOL

As for the Jewish man/Asian woman pairing, I can see how that trend would appear. We're both rather pragmatic and frugal about money!

 

For me, an Asian girlfriend is always the HOTTEST accessory!

[Cannon Fodder]

The hottest accessory this summer is an Asian girlfriend. LOL

As for the Jewish man/Asian woman pairing, I can see how that trend would appear. We're both rather pragmatic and frugal about money!

 

 

hmmmm I dunno I find the whole "asian fetish" phenomenon kinda puzzling to tell you the truth, but I would guess that this is the perfect place to discuss it, at the nexus of both. Maybe you can shed some light Mistress Zhao, without me opening up a whole new thread which maybe I should go ahead and do. At what point does a person's preference or attraction towards "asians" or any ethnicity for that matter become a fetish and is it ever wrong? I myself can identify cases where it could be considered wrong or at least troublesome for someone to stereotype an entire group of people into a pre-set definition that is strictly based on misguided perceptions...and example would be the "asians are submissive" stereotype which I believe it is safe to say is not too prevalent here.

 

I guess what I am getting at, is although it does appear trendy now, some of us have found ourselves attracted to asians for some time. I don;t feel my attraction is based on anything other than environmental circumstances and genetics...and maybe a childhood heavily influenced by japanese pop culture...and so at what point does it become a fetish...and therefore in the eyes of many a problem. I dunno, I feel this might warrant a lot of discussion and I'm not really fleshing out the subject as much as I would like but I would be honored to hear your thoughts.

 

Just a quick example though of something I heard once said to a friend lol I swear it wasn't me, "I dont date guys who like asians" I was kind of flabbergasted, and sort of offended

[joey]

The hottest accessory this summer is an Asian girlfriend. LOL

As for the Jewish man/Asian woman pairing, I can see how that trend would appear. We're both rather pragmatic and frugal about money!

 

ASIAN girlfriends are always hot. i have a Cambodian girlfriend and you wanna talk about obedience? if SHE told me to play in the traffic i'd ask the make and model of the truck SHE wanted me to throw myself in front of!

[Mistress Zhao]

hmmmm I dunno I find the whole "asian fetish" phenomenon kinda puzzling to tell you the truth, but I would guess that this is the perfect place to discuss it, at the nexus of both. Maybe you can shed some light Mistress Zhao, without me opening up a whole new thread which maybe I should go ahead and do. At what point does a person's preference or attraction towards "asians" or any ethnicity for that matter become a fetish and is it ever wrong? I myself can identify cases where it could be considered wrong or at least troublesome for someone to stereotype an entire group of people into a pre-set definition that is strictly based on misguided perceptions...and example would be the "asians are submissive" stereotype which I believe it is safe to say is not too prevalent here.

 

I guess what I am getting at, is although it does appear trendy now, some of us have found ourselves attracted to asians for some time. I don;t feel my attraction is based on anything other than environmental circumstances and genetics...and maybe a childhood heavily influenced by japanese pop culture...and so at what point does it become a fetish...and therefore in the eyes of many a problem. I dunno, I feel this might warrant a lot of discussion and I'm not really fleshing out the subject as much as I would like but I would be honored to hear your thoughts.

 

Just a quick example though of something I heard once said to a friend lol I swear it wasn't me, "I dont date guys who like asians" I was kind of flabbergasted, and sort of offended

 

 

More so than "Asian fetish", this phenomenon is referred to as "Yellow Fever" and the males who have it "rice eaters" LOLOL

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, complementary or derogatory. It's just an obvious trend that appears to have resurfaced at some point congruous with the popularity of manga, anime, and cosplay. This is the second wave that I'm aware of, the first being "Orientalism" when non-Asians were fascinated with all things from The Orient in the early 19th century.

 

The common stereotype isn't necessarily about the submissiveness of females, but the distinctively Asian-ness to our upbringing and lives. We are neat and educated. We have high standards but are modest (ha). We do not model our behavior after the likes of Britney Spears or Paris Hilton, we opt for academia, classical music, and tennis. LOL

 

Have you ever read Tiger Mother by Amy Chua? It's a memoir of the author's upbringing by her typically Chinese mother and how she continues the tradition on her own children in a very self-aware manner. Much controversy was had over that book mainly because most Chinese would never dishonor or exploit their own families like that.

 

I do find some "rice eaters" to be repelling. Even repulsive. That's probably the experience of whomever you overheard. If they see an Asian girl, they're on her like flies to shit. She could be totally fobby or tattooed with green hair. Just as long as she's Asian. It's a trophy mentality and it disgusts me a little to have so little regard for a person's spirit and personality. To see them as an object to be won and possessed.

On the other hand, I have also experienced males who find the Asian race of females to be physically attractive, but that's about it. They're not laden with illusions about how we are all actually ninjas, or zen masters, or amazing cooks. It's purely physical so there's room for growth. The important difference is whether one honors an Asian female as an individual or a commodity.

[Cannon Fodder]

More so than "Asian fetish", this phenomenon is referred to as "Yellow Fever" and the males who have it "rice eaters" LOLOL

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, complementary or derogatory. It's just an obvious trend that appears to have resurfaced at some point congruous with the popularity of manga, anime, and cosplay. This is the second wave that I'm aware of, the first being "Orientalism" when non-Asians were fascinated with all things from The Orient in the early 19th century.

 

The common stereotype isn't necessarily about the submissiveness of females, but the distinctively Asian-ness to our upbringing and lives. We are neat and educated. We have high standards but are modest (ha). We do not model our behavior after the likes of Britney Spears or Paris Hilton, we opt for academia, classical music, and tennis. LOL

 

Have you ever read Tiger Mother by Amy Chua? It's a memoir of the author's upbringing by her typically Chinese mother and how she continues the tradition on her own children in a very self-aware manner. Much controversy was had over that book mainly because most Chinese would never dishonor or exploit their own families like that.

 

I do find some "rice eaters" to be repelling. Even repulsive. That's probably the experience of whomever you overheard. If they see an Asian girl, they're on her like flies to shit. She could be totally fobby or tattooed with green hair. Just as long as she's Asian. It's a trophy mentality and it disgusts me a little to have so little regard for a person's spirit and personality. To see them as an object to be won and possessed.

On the other hand, I have also experienced males who find the Asian race of females to be physically attractive, but that's about it. They're not laden with illusions about how we are all actually ninjas, or zen masters, or amazing cooks. It's purely physical so there's room for growth. The important difference is whether one honors an Asian female as an individual or a commodity.

 

 

Thank you Mistress Zhao, I hadn't expected to be reminded of "Orientalism". As I understood it, Europeans considered virtually anything south or east of Europe to be Oriental. This included North Africa and the Middle East, which is the context in which I had first been exposed to the idea of Orientalism. Nonetheless, I understand your original comment now on the trendyness of all things Asian in this time as a fascination with all things different. As with the Orientalism of the 19th century maybe there are good aspects and bad aspects to this fascination, new ideas hopefully permeate into the consciousness of society and become apart of it, bettering everybody through cultural exchange. At the same time, and this is really the problem that you have explained very well, this fascination also serves to pigeonhole and dehumanize, stripping individuals of their unique importance that is usually afforded to those "non-oriental" or within the group. This extends to stripping entire nations of humanity and leads to many people simply expecting certain actions or behaviors on the world stage as congruent with the behavior of the "other". Also that being said, this is also a two-way street and I would dare say that the non-european nations have had their fair share of Euro-philes and those obsessed with very distorted images of America, good or bad. I would say though, that on the whole, the development of both Western and Eastern nations has been positively influenced by their interchange of ideas and people Europe was transformed by the crusades and later the trading expeditions to the "orient" and Asian nations have been revitalized by adopting Western style reforms historically and today it is fascinating to watch China grapple with reform, while still seeking to remain distinctly "Chinese".

 

I have never heard the term "rice eater" before....lol, I have heard of Tiger Mother and was aware of the stir it caused but not from the perspective of exploitation of the family but from the decidedly western view that this style of parenting is too harsh on the kids. As to desiring to associate with females who are success-oriented, well read, athletic, and do not aspire to be like britney spears...well I am 100% guilty But I fully understand your point now, that expecting any person perceived as Asian to have these characteristics or to adopt the trophy mentality, is as you put it, repellent. Your comment on disregarding the individuals spirit resonated with me as I feel this is a problem with society in general.

 

As always Mistress Zhao I am intrigued by your beauty, terrified of your power, and filled with a desire to pick your brain